Should you watch Echo?

[00:00:37] Speaker A: What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of Sneaky Geek. [00:00:41] Speaker B: Sneaky geek. Yay. [00:00:43] Speaker A: We're doing sneaky geek things. Okay, so today we are asking the very important question, should you watch Echo, Brian? [00:00:53] Speaker C: Yeah, why not? [00:00:55] Speaker A: Thank you very much, everybody. It was lovely having you here today. Brian, what are you reading these days? No, I'm just kidding. Today we are actually talking about Echo, and we are very excited about Echo. Was really good. [00:01:06] Speaker C: It was really good. [00:01:07] Speaker A: There's a lot to be said about Echo, but I'm going to let Brian go first. [00:01:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:12] Speaker A: Because Brian did research this afternoon while I was telling kids what to do. [00:01:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:17] Speaker A: Stupid. [00:01:21] Speaker C: So we had a full five episode drop of Echo this week. [00:01:25] Speaker A: All at once. [00:01:26] Speaker C: All at once, which is Marvel Studios tv show wise, first drop of everything. They did Netflix, and for a while, they were separate. And now with this new kind of rebrand, I guess. I don't even know. [00:01:40] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:01:41] Speaker C: Anyways, they dropped everything at once. And they also basically said that all the Netflix shows are now canon, or what they're calling now is the sacred timeline, per Loki and Loki season two, and all that good stuff, which was fantastic. But, yeah. So we got echo this week, which is technically a spinoff of Hawkeye, which is technically a spin off of Avengers. [00:02:06] Speaker A: Which is also technically a spin off. [00:02:08] Speaker C: Of mean at this point, with all the mean. [00:02:12] Speaker A: Everything's interconnected. [00:02:14] Speaker C: Yeah, it's not necessarily a spinoff. Everything's just interconnected. Really. Awesome. [00:02:19] Speaker A: So it's curious that they're doing Marvel Studios spotlight as its own new thing, because they already had a new thing, which was the Marvel Studios special presentation. [00:02:28] Speaker C: Right. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Which both of those are for, like, made for tv movies, I guess, because neither of those are. [00:02:33] Speaker C: And they're both kind of holiday specials. I mean, you had the Guardians holiday special, and you had, like, the Halloween special, which was werewolf by night, basically, which was great. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Which is also interesting because we just learned that werewolf by night's first appearance was in Marvel spotlight number two. [00:02:50] Speaker C: Right, the book. [00:02:51] Speaker A: Yeah. That's cool. It's curious that they didn't do it then, but now they're doing this other thing, and obviously they're trying to distance it. And from the looks of it, it looks like the spotlight stuff is going to be more grounded storytelling. [00:03:04] Speaker C: Could be, yeah. Because again, with this, they're bringing back in all the defender stuff from the Netflix era, and then even on the Disney plus front page or whatever, it echoes under the defender saga. [00:03:20] Speaker A: Cool. And for me, I think that's one of the reasons people should be excited about this is. This isn't more Marvel. This isn't more MCU. This is more Netflix Marvel. [00:03:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:32] Speaker C: And it really felt like a decent mix of both. Like, obviously, because of Disney, they're probably not going to go super violent, but it was still pretty violent. [00:03:43] Speaker A: It was TVMA. [00:03:44] Speaker C: Yeah, it was their first TVMA. [00:03:46] Speaker A: A guy got shot in the head. [00:03:48] Speaker C: Yeah, he did. [00:03:49] Speaker A: And, like, Daredevil and Punisher are exceedingly violent. But this is the first official MCU, not Netflix, television show they've done that. They've done. That isn't, like, kind of an. Yeah, this is a podcast, and there's flaily hands. That's not a good enough description. This is a podcast. [00:04:09] Speaker C: I don't even know what you're surfing. [00:04:11] Speaker A: I'm doing a little bit of a wave thing. There's a little bit of a Luo action here. I don't know. Listen, I wanted them to be involved, okay? We don't do video, and it's, like, an audio play, but I can't make sound effect. Where's the wobble board? Who's the guy with the wobble, anyway? Yeah. So it's their first TVMA that they're doing and going, yes, this is a Disney property. Instead of, like, Netflix, where they're like, it's a Disney property. But don't worry about. [00:04:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:04:43] Speaker A: Don't worry about, like, we're not really connected to the Marvel universe. There's just avengers footage happening on that guy's tv in the security box, and. [00:04:50] Speaker C: They keep talking about the big green. [00:04:51] Speaker A: Guy and the big green guy. [00:04:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:55] Speaker A: And the thing is, we've connected to that already with she Hulk and with Hawkeye. Yeah, but the she Hulk. [00:05:04] Speaker C: Spider man, too. [00:05:06] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Because Charlie Cox showed up in Spider man. He is just all over the place, that guy. Good for him. He must be so excited. He loves playing daredevil. Anyway, so. Yeah, tv mature, connected under Marvel Studios spotlight. Not Marvel spotlight. Marvel Studios spotlight banner. New banner, new fanfare. And it's fine. I can't tell you what that fanfare sounds like, but it was new fanfare. There was. There was new music. Oh, cool. [00:05:36] Speaker C: I didn't notice. [00:05:37] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:05:37] Speaker C: Both times I watched. [00:05:39] Speaker A: Yes, Brian, tell us. [00:05:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:42] Speaker A: What happened? [00:05:43] Speaker C: So through my old contacts at Marvel, where I used to work, I got to go to the not a premiere, but they called it a launch event. I don't know why, but hey, whatever. I was invited. [00:05:53] Speaker A: It was cool. [00:05:53] Speaker C: But they had some of the costumes out on the red carpet that we got to kind of walk down. There's obviously two separate sides, but we got to walk down. It was cool. Take a bunch of cool pictures. Some of the cast was there. I don't know about some of the crew. I wasn't familiar enough with them, but they had a lot of people from the deaf community and a lot of people from the native american community around Los Angeles, because the show itself is very grounded with the native american heritage of echo. But also, she's deaf in the show, and she's also deaf in real life. [00:06:24] Speaker A: And her character is deaf in the comics as. [00:06:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:06:27] Speaker C: Which was important when they casted her, from what all the interviews are saying. And, you know, it was a cool event. They showed us the first three episodes out of five. We were expecting two, and we got an extra one, so that was really cool. [00:06:38] Speaker A: You said Feige was there, too. [00:06:39] Speaker C: I didn't see him, but I didn't see a lot of people because it's a big theater, but also, with all the interviews that we saw afterwards, a lot of the cast was there. Feige was there. I'm sure a couple of the cool. [00:06:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:06:50] Speaker A: So it was like a premiere. [00:06:52] Speaker C: It was basically a premiere. I don't know why they did not call it that, but, hey, whatever. Still had a great time. [00:06:58] Speaker A: They also premiered it elsewhere, didn't they? Didn't they show this to the Choctaw Nation first? [00:07:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't know about first, but they had a screening event for them as well. Okay. A couple of weeks ago, I believe, and there's a cool little mini documentary on YouTube that Marvel put out about it. [00:07:12] Speaker A: It's very neat. [00:07:13] Speaker C: Yeah. They worked heavily with them on the script because there's a lot of Choctaw Nation language as well as. [00:07:20] Speaker A: Yes, there's a whole bunch of language. [00:07:23] Speaker C: I said ACL. No, there wasn't knee people there. Asl. [00:07:27] Speaker A: There's just so many. The kinesis community really came out for the ACL. [00:07:32] Speaker B: No, not the kinesis community. [00:07:33] Speaker C: Just the knee community. [00:07:33] Speaker A: Just the knee community. You got knees, you're in. [00:07:36] Speaker B: Yes. [00:07:36] Speaker A: The ASL community. [00:07:37] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [00:07:38] Speaker C: They were there as well, because the character is deaf, and the actress is deaf as well, which is all based off the comics. The echo is deaf as well. In fact, this whole thing was very faithful to the comics from her backstory. And for the most part in the comics, Daredevil and Echo have, like, a little romance going on. They didn't quite go there. I don't think they ever go there. [00:08:05] Speaker A: Not quite belonged to both of them either, for a while. Right. Doesn't she date? [00:08:10] Speaker C: She dates Matt Murdoch. [00:08:12] Speaker A: Matt Murdoch, yeah. [00:08:13] Speaker C: And eventually they fight. And then Daredevil, because Echo doesn't really. [00:08:17] Speaker A: Have a mask, right. [00:08:18] Speaker C: But he's like, oh, crap. So then he reveals himself, and it was a whole thing. I didn't actually read those issues. [00:08:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:25] Speaker A: The gist of it is, she's like, I love you, Matt. You're great. And he's like, I love you too, but this is cool. I got to go fight and be daredevil. And then she's like, hey, wait a minute. You killed my dad. And he's like, I'm your age. [00:08:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:39] Speaker A: He died when you were a kid. What are you talking about? She's like, that makes logical sense. I got to go kill kingpin. And then she shoots kingpin in the face. [00:08:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:48] Speaker C: With both eyes. [00:08:49] Speaker A: And he goes completely blind. And that's how kingpin went permanently. Wait, the only permanently blind characters in that comic are stick and daredevil. Kingpin heals because. Comics. Comics. [00:09:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:02] Speaker A: This is a podcast. I'm giving a thumbs up. [00:09:05] Speaker C: That was a really quick brief of the intro of Echo for Daredevil comics. [00:09:09] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:10] Speaker C: How it leads into and how it's a part of the tv series, which they did really well, I got to say. [00:09:18] Speaker A: That first episode basically being an extended. Here's what you missed on glee. [00:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:24] Speaker A: I loved it. I thought that was such a smart choice on their part, because Hawkeye was a little underwatched, because you were talking about something that we are introducing to an entire community of people who may not necessarily know a whole lot about the Marvel cinematic universe, and because they really just needed to flush out some of that stuff. So they're using alternate takes, taking extended versions of some of the shots that they used from Hawkeye and blending in actual shots from Hawkeye. [00:09:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:53] Speaker C: And then film new scenes for Echo to splice in between. It was really well. And so the show takes place five months after Hawkeye, which kind of gives you a nice little timeline of things going on or things not going on. [00:10:08] Speaker A: Hawkeye's takes place during Christmas. It's a Christmas show with Christmas music. It's definitely worth watching. It's great. [00:10:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:14] Speaker C: And it holds up. [00:10:15] Speaker A: It really does. We watched it last week. Yeah, but that means this takes place in early spring, and some people might call that may. Some may call it that. Hey, anyway, that's the only joke you're getting out of me. I don't have enough energy for any more puns, so I officially retire from podcasting okay. Thank God. [00:10:42] Speaker C: This is boring. [00:10:44] Speaker A: Oh, wait. No, you still have to carry it on. Okay, let's go. What do you want to talk about next? Episode by episode? No, let's go episode by episode. Because Brian doesn't want to. So each episode focuses on a different person in Echo's ancestry. [00:11:08] Speaker C: Yep. [00:11:08] Speaker A: And the first episode is Chaffa, which is a Choctaw woman who emerges from the earth with her other clay earth people and becomes human and then leaves the mound where she was originally made, which is actually a real native american, real Choctaw myth, which is so freaking cool. [00:11:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:38] Speaker A: So it's based on the actual myth, and I'm going to not say this entirely correctly, because I am not familiar with Choctaw fanatics, but it is Naniwaya, and that is the mother mound. The Choctaw people origin myth claims that there is, like, a mound of clay and earth that these people were made from. The mound collapsed, they left, and Traffa was this woman who led them out. And this is where the power set of echo kind of changes, because she's, like, basically deaf taskmaster in the comics. But unlike Taskmaster, who can kind of do literally anything he sees, she is still limited with her own body. [00:12:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:20] Speaker A: Which is an interesting take on it. Take on it. And also limitation that I really like in the comics, just because she sees Floyd Mayweather's boxing style and incorporates it into the thing in the comics. [00:12:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:34] Speaker A: Where she's boxing and she's like, and then I'm going to do a little bit of Mayweather this and a little bit. [00:12:41] Speaker C: But if she goes against the Hulk, those punches ain't going to do much. [00:12:43] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:12:44] Speaker C: And that's kind of where that comes in. [00:12:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:46] Speaker A: So we start diverging away from that power set, and I'm going to talk more about that a little bit later because I have opinions and thoughts, and I like to express them. But as she comes home to Oklahoma, to the res, which she hasn't been. [00:13:03] Speaker C: Back in 20 years, since she left. [00:13:04] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:05] Speaker C: Since her dad took her away, we. [00:13:07] Speaker A: Get introduced to Marvel's newest, best character, biscuits. [00:13:12] Speaker B: Biscuits. [00:13:14] Speaker A: We love biscuits. In this house, we stand one biscuits. If you're not a biscuits fan, get on. That's. [00:13:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:21] Speaker A: Anyway, so that's the first episode, then the next episode. What's the next episode called? [00:13:24] Speaker C: Louak. [00:13:25] Speaker A: Louk. [00:13:26] Speaker C: Louk. [00:13:27] Speaker A: Loak. Louak. And loak plays stickball. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Yes. [00:13:33] Speaker A: And stickball is like an actual Choctaw game. And they show this super great sports episode. [00:13:40] Speaker C: Yeah. If you haven't seen it. It's very similar to lacrosse, but it's been played by a whole bunch of different native american tribes all around, which is really cool, but it was really cool seeing that aspect of things. And they really dug deep with the ancestral stuff. [00:13:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Each one of these ancestors who has one of these skills, those skills are becoming available to echo, which is super neat. So the next know, there's this athleticism and this fury and this determination that comes from loak. And then the next episode after that is the light horseman. [00:14:23] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:24] Speaker C: Tuclo. [00:14:25] Speaker A: Tuclo. And Tuclo is a light horseman. And they do this whole black and white thing. And I had some issues with the cinematography of the black and white thing, which is, for the record, the only time in this entire show that I had an issue with cinematography. [00:14:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:39] Speaker A: And it's a technical preference of mine that I feel like if you're going to film something as it's old timey, then you can't use modern techniques. And you should really not use modern glass. You should be using some vintage glass. And if you can actual film cameras and you're Marvel, you have the budget, throw in some extra actual film cameras or at least blur the image a little bit. Who's doing rack focuses? Come on. What is this, PTA bs on a huge boom arm? Yeah, we're getting these friggin mock Fincher shots for something that's supposed to be matched up against, like, 1940s John Wayne Flakes. [00:15:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:22] Speaker A: Anyways, actually not even 1940s because it's supposed to be a silent film, so it should be even shittier than that. But the scene that takes place in is so good. And that point when the dad turns around, we're getting a little spoilery here by now. But the point where the dad turns around and realizes that Tuclo is the one taking out the bandits, and he just starts hooting and hollering. Hell, yeah. That's such a native american thing. And I love that. I absolutely love that. So we go through, and again, that skill becomes available. Go figure. [00:15:55] Speaker C: As she's finding herself, she's also finding her heritage and her ancestors, and these powers unlock. And it's an awesome way to go about doing that. [00:16:05] Speaker A: And I like that in each of these episodes, not only is she finding her connection to these ancestors, but in each episode, she's mending something, or at least starting the process of mending something with a particular person who is important to her in her past. So she's becoming more connected with. I mean, and sometimes it's literally just like the location, but she gets a little bit closer to somebody else from her past. And then somebody else. And then somebody else and all that. [00:16:33] Speaker C: She's interacting with both her ancestors and her extended family. [00:16:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And then the third episode or the fourth episode. [00:16:41] Speaker C: Taloa. [00:16:42] Speaker A: Taloa. Who was Taloa? [00:16:45] Speaker C: I think that was her mom. [00:16:46] Speaker A: Taloa was her mother. And that's when we get the big kind of reveal. Reveal about that, because that's when she starts making the connections back to her actual. [00:16:56] Speaker C: Then, because all these are done in weird visions. [00:16:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:59] Speaker C: And then she's kind of keeping on the download, and she's finally like, okay, here's what's going on. [00:17:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:04] Speaker A: And then somewhere between the fourth and fifth episodes, we watch these all at once because it's like a three and a half hour movie and you should just watch it all together. [00:17:11] Speaker C: Yeah, it's easy. [00:17:12] Speaker A: But somewhere in there, they started playing that down to the river. I went down to the river to pray song from Obrartao, and I had to really hold it together because it was a really beautiful moment of a lot of the town mending and healing from this thing that kind of hurt all of them in a lot of way and other things that hurt all of them. And they all start kind of mending. And then that leads to the pow wow in episode five, which is Maya, who is the last in this line. Anyway, so that's episode by episode without going to getting too into weeds. [00:17:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:48] Speaker A: But I loved so much about this sound design was also really dope. [00:17:56] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. [00:17:57] Speaker C: Especially because she's a deaf character and sometimes they would go to her point of view and everything would be silent. [00:18:03] Speaker A: You get this kind of low, sort of muffled, muffled sound that was not, like, kind of muffled. It was basically just the sort of white noise frequency that went through there. And it was really, really neat to see that perspective. [00:18:23] Speaker C: Definitely. [00:18:24] Speaker B: But, yeah, so we had a. Yeah. [00:18:25] Speaker C: That had a lot of. And, you know, as close to a quarter native american, like, my grandma's, like, it's cool seeing that stuff being actually played up in media these days. I mean, especially with shows like res dogs. [00:18:38] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. [00:18:39] Speaker C: And hell, even parts of Letterkenny. [00:18:41] Speaker A: Yeah, well, because there's a lot of stuff with the res on letter, Kenny and res dogs, too. When they brought up the light Horseman, I got so excited because the Light Horseman is my favorite character in Resdog, and he's very proud of it. And it's also the guy who plays her dad, but, yeah, the light Horseman and the games and the language stuff, you know, I'm a sucker for good language stuff. As a linguist, something that comes up for us a lot is fighting language death. And so there's been so much work on the part of these tribes to regain their languages, which have been unfortunately squashed down and kind of suppressed by colonizers. And it's been going on until recent decades. I mean, it's still happening in a lot of ways, but not to the extent that it was happening a century ago, by all means. But now they're really struggling to get their language back. And so you have a lot of linguists who go into linguistics in order to help revive dying languages. [00:19:48] Speaker B: Cool. Yeah. [00:19:49] Speaker A: And you have a lot of linguists who just kind of find themselves in these communities. So, like a good friend of mine, he wrote the orthography for a whole tribe. I want to say he was a big factor in some of the revival for venturing your chew mash. And that guy was my mentor. This sort of things, it comes up a lot. [00:20:12] Speaker C: It's very important. Especially here in southern California. [00:20:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:15] Speaker A: Especially in an area that has just been. That was a massive, massive territory of varying tribes that all were suffering under conquistadors. Et was. It's just really cool. And I know that people like my friend Nick, my friend Horse are obviously going to see this as a really nice representation because of how hard they went for it, which I just. I mean, like that woman said at the Golden Globes the other day, you're talking about a people whose language was represented by just running the English backwards in old films, old Hollywood. [00:21:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:01] Speaker A: But the sound design of going through and really making sure you get the deaf experience, I felt like was also coupled when you get to things like some of the traditional native american songs they were playing, when they're like, letting. It is a crisp audio. [00:21:22] Speaker C: It is so. [00:21:23] Speaker A: And the powell is great. And any of the other language stuff you're getting was actual Choctaw. There's so many language specialists, and they. [00:21:34] Speaker C: Even did an entire dub of this whole show in Choctaw. [00:21:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:39] Speaker B: That's so freaking cool. [00:21:40] Speaker C: That's also included on one of the YouTube documentaries they did. [00:21:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:44] Speaker A: Super, super cool. [00:21:44] Speaker C: Yeah, check all those out. Any kind of behind the scenes stuff for the show. It's been such a good watch and just entertaining, but also informational and educational. [00:21:57] Speaker A: Yeah. I was really excited for you to go to the launch event because I was really hoping that they would do a little bit more celebrating of that native american heritage. [00:22:08] Speaker C: They did not have the room nor the capacity. [00:22:10] Speaker A: No, they did not. [00:22:12] Speaker C: Smaller theater, but it was still a really good event. It's actually really cool. So a lot of the cast members and the crew took ASL lessons to communicate with Alakwa and also just anybody else who was on set that was deaf. And so it was really cool seeing that they all kept it up. Everybody at a lot of the cast, they all were talking with people, signing. [00:22:38] Speaker A: That's super cool. [00:22:39] Speaker C: Yeah, they did a lot of interviews, but just even afterwards, when the press was gone and people were just kind of hanging out and slowly leaving theater, there was a lot of people signing, a lot of the cast that were there just signing, talking to people. [00:22:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:51] Speaker A: And I know my brother has one of his degrees, is in ASL, and a lot of that community that learns ASL, they kind of can't turn it off. So they kind of just half sign all the time anyway, especially if they're doing it regularly. And when you're on a set like that and you're signing all the time, you're going to pick grapes. I also read that there was basically a deaf person in just about every department in the entire filming process. I read that the other day. I can't tell you what the source was, I read it, but it was in an interview. Somebody was like, there was somebody from the deaf community in most of this. And it's also really cool because I remember the day we watched it, I said I wasn't thrilled about some of the ASL stuff because I saw some people who were signing in CSign. And Csign, for those of you who don't know, is a form of sign language that uses all the words that English does, and does so in english syntax. And it was developed as a method to combat a problem that ASL students were having with reading. Because if you were born deaf and you learned ASL, you don't know english syntax. You know ASL syntax. So this is a podcast, and I'm signing to say it. But the biggest example is if you are going to say, we go to town or we went to town, you say, we go to town, or we go past to town. And in ASL, you would go town, we go past. And that's a completely different syntax. And I noticed that certain people were signing that way, and so I looked it up that night, and it turns out that the reason that certain people were signing that way is because they were representing multiple forms of C sign and ASL, and multiple forms, specifically multiple forms of ASL and multiple levels of difficulty. So the ones who were signing way more with the english syntax were the ones that were speaking while they were signing. The ones that were signing kind of quietly. Those are the ones where I wasn't hearing what they were saying. It was the ones where I was watching their subtitles, so I wasn't tracking. I didn't catch that. When I went back and I looked, and I'm like, no, Maya's totally signing. Like, I knew that she was doing it accurately, but everybody else who signs with her kind of silently, and I want to say, what is her name? Bella. [00:25:32] Speaker C: Her cousin. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Her cousin Bella signs really, really well in the show because she's the one who's doing a lot of the translation. Yeah, but you'll notice not all the words that you're seeing there are correlating with a sign because you're streamlining it. Sign language can move pretty fast. So, yeah, it was really cool to find that my concern was not only not a problem, but actually even better than I had hoped, which is that they represented multiple levels. And I said this during the show. I love that everyone who knows her, specifically her relatives. [00:26:05] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:26:06] Speaker A: They all sign. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:07] Speaker C: Well, her mother in the show, too, was deaf, so it was kind of set up early on with her family, immediate family, till she had kids. [00:26:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:13] Speaker A: So her mom, her grandma, of course, knows sign, and then it's cool that her grandpa, I guess, doesn't sign so well, but he still tries really hard. [00:26:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:24] Speaker A: So I don't know. I love that actor. [00:26:26] Speaker C: He's so good. [00:26:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Proof. [00:26:28] Speaker C: Germany was great. [00:26:29] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. No, there wasn't a bad actor in the bunch. [00:26:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:32] Speaker A: There's never a point where I'm, like, rough. Not that he gets a whole lot of lines, but even the dude that biscuits gets help with on his car. [00:26:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:42] Speaker A: Does well. There's never a point where I was, like, about delivery or anything. I did not cringe. I loved this. [00:26:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:50] Speaker C: The fight scenes were amazing, dude. [00:26:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:54] Speaker C: And the way they were shot and the camera movements, we haven't seen anything like that. And so it was nice and refreshing because you see a Marvel movie, an action movie. A lot of them are shot the same. A lot of them are choreographed very similarly. And this was some of those fights. Great. [00:27:10] Speaker A: I like the jump cuts where you would have a kick, and then it would cut really harshly, but obviously into more punching and stuff. [00:27:22] Speaker C: Right. [00:27:22] Speaker A: But without it being a straight, continuous. [00:27:25] Speaker C: Thing, the camera position featured it. [00:27:28] Speaker A: Position. [00:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:29] Speaker C: And we have a friend that was actually a lock, was stunt Double Caitlin Deshel. [00:27:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:35] Speaker C: We'll see if we get her on the podcast. But I was chatting with her a little bit online to be like, holy crap. I didn't realize you worked on that show. But it was great at doctor afterwards. But she did a great job, too. And there's a lot of scenes where you can't tell who was the stunt double and who was the main actor because the cuts were really well done, the choreography was well done, and the camera angles that they were doing and just the way it was moving. [00:28:00] Speaker A: We love our stunt people. Yeah, we do. We really do. We love our stunt people. [00:28:04] Speaker C: Shout out to Latif and the crew of Mando, season three for winning that Emmy. [00:28:08] Speaker A: For stunts. [00:28:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:10] Speaker C: Anyway, so good. No, the action scenes were great in this, and it was fucking great. [00:28:16] Speaker A: Yeah, it was solid. And I know that it was rumored to be six episodes. [00:28:22] Speaker C: Yeah, originally, I think they shot six, and they cut it down to five. [00:28:25] Speaker A: And cut it down to five. But I feel like the pacing of everything was really strong. I know we've recorded before where we've been like, I really liked that. And then, like, a week later, we're like, well, we're like, three days out right now, and I still am still like, yeah, no, that was really good. Yeah, that was solid. We started it watching in a group watch with Nicole, who was at her house, and then we watched the rest, and she was like, hey, how far did you guys get? Neko and I went. [00:29:03] Speaker B: We kept going. [00:29:04] Speaker A: And she went, you watched the whole thing, didn't you? And I said, yeah, we watched the entire thing that night. We didn't stop. And she said, well, we're fighting. And I said, that's fine. I accept that. I said, you really need to watch it, though. I'll watch it with you. I would gladly watch it again. [00:29:25] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:29:26] Speaker A: And that's nice, too, because sometimes it's a burden to have to watch something. [00:29:29] Speaker C: No? Yeah, because I watched it on a Monday. I watched the first three episodes on Monday. [00:29:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:29:34] Speaker C: And it dropped on Tuesday. I had zero issue watching the first three episodes again. I was going to come home and just watch the last two. And then. [00:29:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I remember. Told you. [00:29:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:44] Speaker C: He was like, we're going to watch Echo if you want to watch it. I was like, yeah, sure. Hell, yeah. [00:29:48] Speaker A: Let's go. It's interesting, too, because you watched it as one cut for those first three episodes. [00:29:56] Speaker C: Pretty much. [00:29:57] Speaker A: Did they show the intro? [00:29:59] Speaker B: Yes. [00:30:00] Speaker A: So they always. [00:30:01] Speaker C: Yeah, so they always went to the Marvel Studios intro, but we never got credits until the very end. And they stacked all three episodes credits, one right after another. [00:30:10] Speaker B: Okay. [00:30:11] Speaker A: So cold opens might have seemed like they were. [00:30:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:14] Speaker C: And I even leaned over to Jim to be like, hey, man, is this part of episode two or three? He's like, it's episode three now. I'm like, okay, cool, I got to. [00:30:22] Speaker A: Go to the bathroom. [00:30:24] Speaker C: But, yeah. [00:30:27] Speaker B: That whole. [00:30:30] Speaker A: Thing, I mean, it could have been a movie. I don't know that it would have. Because of its kind of chaptered style. It doesn't quite work for a movie in that regard. But there's no reason why this can't just be a three and a half hour experience. [00:30:47] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:30:48] Speaker A: I don't think it could have been like, go to theaters, movie. Because that would require a bit of cutting and making it a little bit more streamlined. But because you're taking those breaks in between episodes, how brief as they are, it is kind of episodic and chaptery in a way that's really nice. And it's not to say that those don't work. Quentin Tarantino loves that. [00:31:10] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:31:11] Speaker A: Yeah. But it really, as a whole, worked so well. And I don't know that it would have worked that well as a non binge, this situation. I love episodic television, and I love wait till next week so that we can all talk about what. [00:31:32] Speaker C: I love Game of Thrones so much. [00:31:34] Speaker A: Or the OC or whatever it is we're talking about. [00:31:38] Speaker C: Hell, yeah. That first season was amazing. [00:31:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:41] Speaker A: But when you have some shows that they need to be episodic because of the story, but they also really don't need to be released one week at a time and some of those. [00:31:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:55] Speaker A: Like, you were telling me that in the rewatch of Loki, watching it back to back to back was really good. [00:32:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:01] Speaker A: But watching it one at a time, one week at a time, it could get a little frustrating. [00:32:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:07] Speaker C: I didn't love Loki season two the first time around. I loved Loki because we watched it all at once. Pretty much. [00:32:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:14] Speaker A: I binged it Netflix style. [00:32:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:16] Speaker A: Which I also love that this is Netflix style and it's a continuation of Netflix Defenders line. [00:32:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:32:25] Speaker C: Which we were big fans. [00:32:27] Speaker A: Mean, I love all of those shows, including iron fist haters. It's an excellent corporate drama. [00:32:36] Speaker B: Okay. [00:32:36] Speaker A: It's a decent. It's a corporate drama. Just enjoy it like that. [00:32:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:42] Speaker A: The second season, though, was so good. [00:32:43] Speaker C: It was a lot better. [00:32:44] Speaker A: And I maintained that the second half of Luke Cage after Cottonmouth, spoilers after Cottonmouth gets killed. The second half is garbage. It goes from being a reference and an homage to black exploitation, to just being black exploitation. And it feels really gross. Not in a good way. I don't like it. But that second season with Bushmaster is so good. It's so good. And so for me, still got to. [00:33:10] Speaker C: Finish Punisher in dude Punisher season two. Jessica Jones. [00:33:13] Speaker A: Jessica Jones season two was a little bit of a mess, but Jessica Jones season three is so good. But for me, like I said earlier, I was excited, and I didn't hit me until about midway through the first episode. I'm like, oh, I'm not here because I'm seeing a new MCU thing. I'm here because I'm seeing a new Netflix show. [00:33:31] Speaker C: Oh, that's what it felt like. [00:33:33] Speaker A: I was like, oh, cool. It's a new show in basically the Defenders universe. And for me, I just want more of that because the last several things Marvel has put out, I haven't been the hugest fan of. I haven't loved them wholly and completely. I really loved the marvels, but I also really love something. I really love the Silent Hill movie, and the Silent Hill movie is hot trash. It is terrible, but I love it. And I had so much fun watching the Marvel. [00:34:07] Speaker C: Oh, it was great fun. [00:34:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:09] Speaker A: But the movie's a bit of a mess. This was not that. This was not. I had fun, but it would have been nice if they could have flushed that story out. The pacing was good. They gave us time to breathe. That I went down to the river to pray. Like, montage was so long. [00:34:26] Speaker C: Pretty much any of the songs they put out every minute of it. [00:34:29] Speaker A: Yeah, well, the music as well. But that montage itself was a calm, cool, relaxed moment where you were allowed to process all of the things that were happening. You were allowed to examine generational trauma. Think about it for a know that kind of thing. And we weren't given that in the marvel. We haven't been given that for several movies in the MCU, and we haven't really been given that necessarily for a lot of shows either, Loki aside. And it was nice. [00:35:00] Speaker C: It really know. [00:35:02] Speaker A: And for me, I really like that. And I think there's a reason that memes about studio Ghibli taking their sweet ass time to get through a story and how that's been like, that's why they're so successful. I think there's a reason that people are latching on and telling that part, because people are also tired of being exhausted by movies. Yeah, I need to be able to breathe. So with Echo, I don't have any major critiques of it. [00:35:28] Speaker C: No, there's a good amount of action. There's a good lot of good. A lot of good. [00:35:33] Speaker A: A lot of good. A lot of. [00:35:35] Speaker C: There's a great amount of action, but also a great amount of character development with pretty much everybody in there. I know it was cut down from six episodes, and there's a few times where I'm like, I wish you would have got more time with this one character or this other character. But at the same time, they still had a great performance, and they served the purpose of the story. [00:35:55] Speaker A: Something that I thought about the day after I watched it was. It left me wanting more, and not because I needed more, but because I was craving more. [00:36:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:05] Speaker A: And the marvels left me wanting more because I felt like I was missing something fair. And this I was like, no, you gave me everything I needed. I did not need this to be six episodes. And I am the first person who will tell you, make more fucking episodes. You can't tell the story this short. It's the same reason why I don't like four and five issue arcs. You need to. The comics push this a little wider, but they kind of do. We have a 50 minutes episode and a 40 minutes episode. [00:36:34] Speaker C: That's what I really like about the streaming model that they're doing. It's like the episodes are as long as they need to be to tell this certain story in this certain episode. [00:36:43] Speaker A: Like a chapter in a book. [00:36:44] Speaker C: Yeah. They don't have any commercial breaks. Well, depends on your tier, but that's a whole different podcast. But it doesn't matter. They're not fit in a 22 minutes time frame, in a 30 minutes slot to make way for those stupid ads. But whatever. But same thing with the Star wars shows, obviously. Sometimes I'm like, I just want more because I want more. But it's like the story is still good, and the episode was great. And the story in the episode was great. [00:37:15] Speaker A: Although there are some times during mandalorian when I'm like, I would have preferred this be a 40 minutes episode. I feel like I'm missing 10 minutes of understanding what's going on. [00:37:23] Speaker C: Fair season three. [00:37:27] Speaker A: Should have called us. [00:37:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:29] Speaker A: Okay. We're getting real spoilery. We were spoilery before. We're getting real spoilery now. I loved Doctor Strange. Yeah, the original Doctor Strange movie. Now, I'm sure you're all going, what the. Where the. Where the hell are you going with this? At the end of Doctor Strange, he is presented with a fight against Dormammu. [00:37:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:50] Speaker A: And that has potential to become a big, explosive marvel ending. Oh, yeah. And instead, you watch this clever asshole. Clever asshole is way out of there. [00:38:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Fuck. Great. [00:38:01] Speaker A: And it's so good, so refreshing. It's refreshing. It's new, it's exciting. And it's funny because Doctor Strange is kind of whimsical. [00:38:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:09] Speaker A: Now we're not going to talk about multiverse of madness and my problems with multiverse of madness, but the original podcast there, when we talk about the original Doctor Strange, I will seldom get through that conversation without bringing up Dormammu I've come to bargain. [00:38:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:22] Speaker A: Because Dormammu I've come to bargain was amazing. People kept on bringing it up. It became kind of a meme. It was refreshing. It was new. It was a very doctor strange solution. It'd be like if at the very end of a fantastic four movie, Reed Richards does all the fighting. What? No. Outsmart them. You'reed Richards? [00:38:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:39] Speaker A: What the hell are you doing? [00:38:39] Speaker C: Scientist. That's the science know. [00:38:43] Speaker A: So at the very end of this, when Maya looks this surrogate father in the eye and says, I'm going to take you back to season one of Daredevil, and we're going to talk about this real quick, and we're going to address your fucking feelings, and he goes to grab the hammer, which pulling out that hammer in the first place, I was like, oh, there's a lot of. [00:39:03] Speaker C: Trauma there, but also a solid callback to the Netflix stuff. If you were thinking like, well, maybe there isn't really any connectivity. Like, there's a fucking hammer right there. [00:39:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:14] Speaker A: And if you're still wondering whether or not you should watch it, it's a little late to tell you this, but you should definitely watch Daredevil season one. [00:39:22] Speaker C: Yeah, I love all those seasons. [00:39:24] Speaker A: I love all three of them. And I need to rewatch season three because I'm pretty sure he was at least on track to run for mayor. But maybe I'm confusing things that were happening in the comics because I don't actually know. [00:39:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:38] Speaker A: But I know that between the in and out of prison and his wife, I'm really curious because I don't recall her. [00:39:46] Speaker C: There was a throwaway line where he was like, I'm also mourning people. I lost. [00:39:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:51] Speaker A: Did he lose his wife? Was that in season three? I don't remember. [00:39:55] Speaker C: I can't remember either. [00:39:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:57] Speaker A: Someone tell me. I know he lost his wife in. Into the spiderverse. Maybe he lost her in the same way. [00:40:02] Speaker B: Who knows? Yeah. [00:40:02] Speaker A: Right? Wouldn't that be cool if the into the spiderverse thing is a canon event, and it's canon for him, too. [00:40:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:10] Speaker A: The losing of his wife and a potentially kid. [00:40:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:15] Speaker A: Okay. Anyway, stay tuned. When she goes into his head and we see the cracked wall, which is such a big thing because it takes eight episodes for Daredevil to even explain the cracked wall before you finally understand why he's staring at it and why. Because he loves that painting. Because she's an art dealer when he first meets. Right. He's like, this painting speaks to me about saving this city. No, that's not his line. But it's basically the kingpin in a nutshell. She gets there. She's in his mind. We're having a very dormammu moment, and she's like, you got to let some of this anger. [00:40:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:51] Speaker A: Like, I got this. You need to give that hammer to me. You can't do this. And he's, like, crying. And of course, it's Vincent D'Onofrio, who is fantastic masterclass actor. Like, oh, my God. He's one of my all time favorites as far. Like, the guy. You put that guy in something, and he's going to make it brilliant. Literally. The man played a giant cockroach. [00:41:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:13] Speaker C: I was just going to say men in black. [00:41:14] Speaker A: Like, that man's performances in full metal jacket gave me nightmares for. [00:41:19] Speaker C: Oh, my God. [00:41:20] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. [00:41:21] Speaker A: And he's a little baby in that. [00:41:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:23] Speaker A: That's like one of his first roles. [00:41:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:26] Speaker A: Holy shit. [00:41:26] Speaker C: I forgot that was him. [00:41:27] Speaker A: Oh, my God, he's so good. I am in awe of the things he can accomplish, especially in something like, know. And I told you when we watched Ahsoka, I was like, you want to watch the thrawn show? Because that's how I was thinking about it. And when Echo was coming out, I'm like, I can't wait for kingpin. [00:41:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:46] Speaker A: Because I want kingpin. [00:41:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:48] Speaker A: So when she's in his head getting back to this, I promise my point will be made. [00:41:51] Speaker B: Yes. [00:41:52] Speaker A: When she's in his head and she stops him, and then she's like, I got this. It's cool. And he sort of lets go of that anger, that rage that has been kind of a key point of who. [00:42:06] Speaker C: He is for as long as we've seen him. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Because all of his emotions regarding his father, regarding his trauma, regarding his childhood have all been fueled through one tiny filter, and that is beat the ever living shit out of somebody. And that's why he keeps losing his temper, crushing people's heads and various kingpin things. Like, kingpin doesn't have to do violent stuff. He has people for that. And I don't think he's going to stop doing, like, ordering hits, right? Because he knows what needs to get done in order to get things done. But I don't think we're necessarily going forward with him having as much of a rage problem anymore. Or if we are, it's going to be, like, problematic for him to go there because he's going to understand that that now comes with extra things like sadness and upset. And so when they come back to the real world and Vincent D'Onofrio looks at her, horrified, scared, angry, and tears in his eyes going, what did you like? He knows that he's been broken a little bit, and not that he's been broken, but that she has revealed his cracks that have been sealed up with anger. [00:43:14] Speaker C: Right? [00:43:15] Speaker A: It was shitty wabisabi with foil instead of gold. [00:43:19] Speaker C: Such a good character moment for both. [00:43:21] Speaker A: So good. And for me, I was like, one. I didn't want kingpin to die. Yeah, no, he's kingpin. [00:43:26] Speaker C: Give me more. [00:43:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:28] Speaker A: But for her solution for him, after a five episode arc of healing and returning to her roots and understanding her traumas and how they're not entirely her fault, and she doesn't really resolve things with her grandma either. She's like, you abandoned me and you pulled an old Encanto grandma abuela problem. And while we're on the subject, Abuela from Encanto, what's her fucking deal? Why is she such a shitty mom? Why she sucks so much? [00:43:54] Speaker C: Such a villain. [00:43:55] Speaker A: Such a villain. That's the real villain. Anyway. No, it's a civil war. Not important for the villain of the story for her to beat, to be kingpin's traumas. Not kingpin himself, but this monster that Kingpin allows himself to be, that she idolizes because he is showing her an outlet that she thinks is healthy when she realizes it isn't, after she connects with all of her ancestors and goes, no. [00:44:27] Speaker C: Yeah, so it's cool. So when the first three episodes, I think I mentioned to you without any spoilers, I was like, this is not a hero story. And it's not even really a hero redemption arc at the end. It does get there, but playing up to it, you don't even realize, which is such a great story. [00:44:46] Speaker A: No, it's a one two punch for sure. They do the old Indiana Jones hat over your face. You're like, look at this angry bad guy. [00:44:53] Speaker B: What? [00:44:53] Speaker A: Psych punch? [00:44:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:54] Speaker A: Yeah. You watched a redemption story, you idiot. [00:44:56] Speaker B: Yeah. God damn. [00:44:57] Speaker C: It was great. And at first I was cool. Like, she's not a hero. She's kind of an, I guess she's just, she's just trying to get know. [00:45:04] Speaker A: And I like that she starts off very much like, maybe it's time for a queen. [00:45:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:08] Speaker A: And by the end, she's like, she pulls an old Jon Snow. I don't want it, McQueen. I don't want it with better written dialogue. [00:45:21] Speaker C: So with all that got said and done and then again, still spoilery stuff. Like, we see Kingpin leave in his plane and then still so burnt, he's. [00:45:34] Speaker A: Like, I don't know what the fuck. [00:45:35] Speaker C: Just happened, but I'm pissed off. [00:45:36] Speaker A: Because he runs away. [00:45:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:38] Speaker A: Because he realizes, like, he just lost his biggest weapon, which is his rage. [00:45:44] Speaker C: That she kind of, like, again, kind of healed for him. Helped heal so good. [00:45:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:49] Speaker C: But anyway, so we kind of get hints of his next storyline, which I'm so excited about. [00:45:54] Speaker B: Yes. [00:45:54] Speaker C: And they went that way in the comics. Know, again, spoilers. He runs for mayor and becomes mayor of New York. In the comic books. [00:46:02] Speaker A: The only thing crazier than that is if they elected J. Jonah Jameson. That was years before they also elected. [00:46:09] Speaker C: J. Jonah Jameson, which was also awesome storylines too. [00:46:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:12] Speaker A: But if we're leaning toward the daredevil story we just had with kingpin as the mayor and devil's reign. Yeah, devil's reign. Kingpin as the mayor and daredevil going to jail. If that's the direction they're heading. Sign me. The fuck? [00:46:28] Speaker C: That was some good part of my language. Yeah, good stuff. Chip Zdarsky's run. [00:46:34] Speaker A: Chip Zdarsky. [00:46:34] Speaker C: Fucking amazing. One of these. [00:46:36] Speaker A: So good. [00:46:36] Speaker C: I've never been a huge daredevil comic fan. [00:46:39] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:46:40] Speaker C: But I absolutely picked up and subscribed to those issues when they came out. [00:46:43] Speaker B: Nice. Yeah. [00:46:44] Speaker C: I did miss the issue where electric became daredevil. I think I have the second printing. Anyways, also good stuff. And eventually leads into, like, the Daredevils where it's both of them running around New York. Yeah, good stuff all around. If you guys want to check some stuff out, that's it. [00:47:02] Speaker A: Quality. [00:47:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:05] Speaker A: So I have one other thing I wanted to talk about. [00:47:07] Speaker C: Yes, that's right. [00:47:10] Speaker A: So for those of you who probably wondering, we haven't really talked that much about it. There's a major power set change in Echo. Echo has an identic memory like we talked about before. She's basically taskmaster. Deaf female taskmaster. And not to be confused with the other female taskmaster in that black widow movie. [00:47:33] Speaker C: Right. Comic version. [00:47:36] Speaker A: That's a whole nother podcast. So she doesn't have that. She's not just, like, seeing things and learning how to do things. She is very good, and she is very good at observing, and she has what seems to be a semi identic memory anyway. [00:47:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:52] Speaker A: But her power set is this connection to heritage. [00:47:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:59] Speaker C: Which can give her super strength or endurance, and I don't even know that it's fully. [00:48:05] Speaker A: Well, I guess it is super strength. Like, she has those moments where she gets, but it's still kind of grounded. And they did a power set change with Miss Marvel in Miss Marvel. [00:48:16] Speaker C: Tell us how you feel about that. [00:48:17] Speaker A: I'm angry about that, and I'm angry about that for a number of reasons. Number one, the story of Miss Marvel is about a teenage girl who's trying to figure out teenage life, and that includes wrestling with some body issues and your changing body and not knowing who you are, not knowing where you fit in, knowing that you are part of one particular group of people, but not necessarily fully jiving with that group of people at all times, but loving the people in that community all the same. And when she realizes that she is an inhuman, because in the comics, she is an inhuman, she has to wrestle with that sort of thing, which is why she has stretchy powers. And as G. Willow Wilson said, they're not sparkly and cool. It's awkward and weird. That's her in a nutshell. And she, as a character is awkward and weird. The actress, iman Villani nails 100%. Kamala Khan. [00:49:18] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:49:18] Speaker A: I think she's great. She's not necessarily, like, who I pictured, per se. Not like with, like, hagrid or snape, where I'm like, yeah. [00:49:26] Speaker C: No, but it was still like, oh, pleasant surprise. [00:49:30] Speaker A: Absolute. [00:49:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:31] Speaker A: And, I mean, the only person I love in that show more than her is Nakia, because Nakia plays Nakia perfectly, but she has sparkly powers, and it feels like a complete dismissal of what G. Willow Wilson did. And a lot of people might argue that Sana was the creator of the story, yada, yada, yada. But that is a G. Willow Wilson book. She's the one who wrote the book, regardless of who wrote the story, the lines, the things, the various powers and how they work and the decisions on art and things like that would go through Willow. So when we come to a character like Echo, who is deaf and connected to her community and uncertain where she stands because she has this sort of surrogate father who she can't trust, reconnecting with her own community after that and all the things that happen there, changing her power set to basically allow her to do all the echo shit while instead incorporating this ancestral connection that is a very choctaw thing, a very family thing, and grounding her to the Choctaw nation, which in the comics, she's Cheyenne, but that's neither here nor there. The idea that she is connecting with this particular first nation group. [00:50:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:43] Speaker C: And it's very mystic, which we've seen in the MCU already, so still works out great. [00:50:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:48] Speaker A: And it's nice because it's not just, oh, she's just really good. And don't be wrong. I like that. She's just really good. That's what Hawkeye is. But there's a reason everybody thinks Hawkeye's boring. It's because he's just really good. But I like that her powers are linked to people in her past. I liked that even though this was a divergence, and I'm sure on some level, it was just that I'm not as in love with her story in the comics. I love it. It's great. It's awesome. But I felt like these changes were true to who she was at her core. [00:51:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:28] Speaker C: Because it was handled very well. [00:51:31] Speaker A: What they gave to Miss Marvel, what they gave to Kamala Khan was what Kamala Khan wanted. And what the comics gave to Kamala Khan is not what she wanted. [00:51:44] Speaker C: No. In fact, even, like, she kind of. [00:51:46] Speaker A: Got it because she got to literally become Captain Marvel by turning into her and morphing into her. But the more she healed, the less she was able to transform because she kept reinforcing in her inhuman dna what she was supposed to return to. And so it became harder and harder for her to do that transformation. So that power set went away within, like, six issues. But with Echo, these powers are also not what she wants. She doesn't want to be connected to that side of her life. She wants to be removed from it. She only goes back there because she knows that she can manipulate people, and she gets back there and realizes that she needs those people, and she is those people. And healing herself is what gives her this mystic power. There's something about that, and there's something about the way that all works that truly, to me, feels like a decision that's like, oh, if this had been the case all along, I would have read this anyway. [00:52:39] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:52:40] Speaker A: Whereas with Miss Marvel, I don't know that I would have loved it as much if she wasn't so damned awkward. Yeah, I like that. Because she is awkward, and she's wrestling with the body issues that come with teenage years, and therefore she's having weird, stretchy body issues. So for Echo to have this connection to the first people, to the first nation, to her ancestry and all that, I feel like that feels very true to who she is as a character in both universes. [00:53:08] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, no, definitely. [00:53:09] Speaker A: So anyway, I have to say about that, and thank you for coming to my TED talk. [00:53:14] Speaker C: But, yeah, it's cool because the comics are very similar where her heritage is very focused on from the beginning, even up until now. Two years ago, there was an Avengers storyline where basically she got the Phoenix force, and she's now the Phoenix. And then there's another miniseries that came out last year where she used the Phoenix force, but then also used the Phoenix force to, I guess it kind of used her. It was a whole thing. Read it. It's fun. It's great. But basically, she kind of went back in time and saw her ancestors and what they went through and kind of reconnected with that. And I think the show early on, I'm sure Marvel is like, hey, we're doing this with the show, if you want to work this thing in the comics, and it still worked out great. [00:54:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:04] Speaker A: When I first heard that, I was actually really skeptical, because as far as I'm concerned, the Phoenix Force loves mutants, particularly those with the last name Gray or summers, but gray adjacent. And the Phoenix force typically wants that. So the idea of her going and getting the Phoenix force being not, as far as we know, a mutant and being just sort of a random character, it seems, I was very skeptical. So it's really nice to hear that. It's good. [00:54:35] Speaker C: Yeah, the storyline was cool. I didn't hate it by any means. And then it went into another storyline was like, what is this? But, no, it's been really cool. And then they haven't really done much with her lately. And then in the comics, Jean Grey kind of gets back with the Phoenix force a little bit. We're still working through that. Ms. Marvel's now a mutant. That was actually handled weird, but good. [00:54:56] Speaker A: But I liked the way they handled it. [00:54:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:59] Speaker A: The idea that she's a mutant and an inhuman is like, it took until that line for me to go, I officially give this my seal of approval. [00:55:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:08] Speaker A: But once it was like, no, you're actually an inhuman too, which is weird, because that's not supposed to happen. [00:55:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:12] Speaker C: They very much address that in the comics in a very cool way. [00:55:17] Speaker A: People died over the idea that mutants and inhumans, really? [00:55:23] Speaker C: I mean, there was a whole storyline of inhumans versus mutants versus X Men. [00:55:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:28] Speaker C: Which is okay, but no, and actually, Naman Vilani is actually co writing the Ms. Marvel books. [00:55:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:35] Speaker C: And they've been great. [00:55:36] Speaker A: I haven't gotten to read. [00:55:38] Speaker C: So she's now in college, and she was interning with Peter Parker for a little Bit. And so with the X Men book, she's kind of halfway at college, but is working on the download with the X Men, trying to figure out what her powers are because they haven't manifested yet. But her X gene is active and around. Right, but it's her inhuman genes that are kind of keeping those on the down low. But she's writing it. Yeah, but the way she's writing it, it's fucking great. [00:56:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:06] Speaker A: And if her X Men powers eventually lead to the sparkly sparklies, I will accept that. But to me, there's a lot of decisions made with the discs that I don't like. She does the big stretchy thing in the movie, and I'm like, yeah, do more of that. I don't care if it's sparkly. If you're going to at least do that. Oh, you want to stand taller? Give me sparkly, long legs. That's fine. But she keeps on, like, running along discs, and I'm like, yeah, okay, mega man. [00:56:37] Speaker B: Yeah, cool. Dr. [00:56:38] Speaker A: Strange. Yeah, cool, cool. Thanks. But Echo itself. [00:56:43] Speaker C: But Echo, so good. Yeah, everything there was handled great, and. [00:56:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:48] Speaker A: Do you have anything further to say? [00:56:51] Speaker C: I don't think so. I'm just excited to where all the storylines go either. With Echo, Daredevil showed up for a quick fight scene in the first episode. Handled really well. It wasn't super focused on Daredevil, but it was still pertinent to the grand story of everything and her relationship. [00:57:11] Speaker A: Nobody else, not very many people come out of that. [00:57:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:15] Speaker C: He's like, I'm very proud of you. [00:57:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:17] Speaker C: So that was really cool. Short, sweet to the point, but also not overwhelming. He didn't overtake anything kind of similar. Not similar what they did. [00:57:27] Speaker A: Shehulk. [00:57:28] Speaker C: He was great in Shehulk, too, but. [00:57:30] Speaker A: Like, yeah, he stole the show in she hulk, just a little. [00:57:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:33] Speaker C: But the sprinkling of him in the last few things, spider man, she Hulk, and this have been great. I'm excited for what they did with his, um, as many problems they've apparently been having behind the scenes, but, yeah, hopefully that turns out pretty good. [00:57:47] Speaker A: Have they been having problems behind the scenes? [00:57:49] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:57:50] Speaker C: They canned the showrunner and pretty much reshooting the entire thing for what? Daredevil show. [00:57:56] Speaker A: Oh, shit. [00:57:57] Speaker C: Born again. [00:57:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:00] Speaker C: But then also just kingpin's storyline with him running for mayor of New York and that because there's so many heroes that are based in New York with all these Marvel movies, it'd be cool if he just shows up. Hell be cool if he's one of the main villains in whatever Spider man movie is coming out next. [00:58:15] Speaker A: Yeah, it'd be nice, I think, too, if Marvel Spotlight became not just like the, oh, this is the more grounded stuff. Although Moon Knight would be really good for that. And Collider.com actually said something like that. Like, moon Knight should have been the first in the Spotlight series, but at that point, I think they were still trying to work out what's going on with Daredevil. It'd be nice if the Marvel spotlight logo or umbrella specifically was over the Defenders and New York City hero. City level. Heroes city level stuff. [00:58:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:52] Speaker A: And not that we need another Spider man movie or another Spider man show, but I would not mind at all. But right now, Spiderman's tough because we have to get 17 different movies from Sony this year or whatever, because we needed a new origin story for Craven the hunter. That's what we all asked for, right? That's what you guys all had on your list? [00:59:21] Speaker C: Brian, we have Spider Woman coming up. [00:59:23] Speaker A: We do have Spider Woman. Wait, and another venom. [00:59:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:26] Speaker A: In maybe, just maybe, Dave, maybe we'll release that Venom episode one day. [00:59:34] Speaker C: Release the Venom. [00:59:35] Speaker B: Cut. [00:59:35] Speaker A: No, maybe. I don't know. It's a podcast, and I got a real dumb grin on my face because. [00:59:44] Speaker C: It brings shitting grin right now. [00:59:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:48] Speaker A: So that's all I need to say about echo. Is that all that you need to say about echo? [00:59:51] Speaker C: I think just. I really enjoyed it. [00:59:53] Speaker A: And cinematography, sound design. Everyone is excited for more Netflix, Marvel, which we can't call it that. [01:00:00] Speaker C: Yeah, well, you know. [01:00:02] Speaker A: So good. [01:00:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So good. [01:00:04] Speaker A: I'm so excited. Go watch it if you didn't watch it. I'm sorry that we spoiled everything. But there's a lot we didn't spoil, though. There's a lot we didn't spoil. Like, the journey there is great. [01:00:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:15] Speaker A: I hope that you paused it when I said we're getting into deep spoiler territory to talk about kingpin. And, hey, good news. You had, like, 10 minutes to get to there because it took me that long to get to my point. But as we did. Brian, what are you reading these days? [01:00:28] Speaker C: Oh, man. I am making my way through some of the Star wars books. [01:00:32] Speaker A: You are. You've been reading all those vintage Star wars books. [01:00:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:34] Speaker C: So comics wise, I just got, like. I'm like, I want to reread some of these Star wars legacy books, which they all happen 130 years after Return of the Jedi. So it's like Luke Skywalker's great great great grandson, and he's a strung out, druggy former Jedi, and he's fighting, like, fallen. Yeah, the Sith show back up. Except there's now instead of the rule of tool, they're like, that's a stupid rule. There's going to be, like, ten of us, and we're going to create a whole empire because it worked way below tens of thousands of years beforehand. So that's been cool. Rereading through that, and then I did. [01:01:05] Speaker A: Not see the mural. [01:01:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:07] Speaker C: And then been making my way through Rise of the red blade. I'm looking up at my Star wars bookshelf, and it's not up there because I don't own the physical copy. I have the audiobook. [01:01:17] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's the one about the Inquisitor. [01:01:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:20] Speaker C: From her time as a padawan just before the Clone wars and what she was doing during the Clone wars. And then once order 66 happened and how she became, like, how she fell to the dark side. It's been one of the best Star wars books I've read in years. [01:01:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:35] Speaker C: And then just keeping up with the high Republic stuff and then playing Ghost of Sushima, and I think I'm almost done with it. [01:01:42] Speaker A: You're very close. Yeah, I've been watching a lot. Yeah, it's interesting because I like watching people play video games almost less than you do. [01:01:53] Speaker C: I hate it. [01:01:54] Speaker A: And I very much like. I definitely backseat occasionally where I'm like, wait, no, there was a hostage, which. [01:02:00] Speaker C: Is good because they're hard to see anyway. [01:02:02] Speaker A: Because they're hard to see. They're in the pompous grass. [01:02:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:04] Speaker A: But last night when I saw you were doing the exact same mistake I did, I was like, go to the mission. Just go to the mission. Because we wanted you to get the horse. [01:02:14] Speaker C: Yeah, no, that actually didn't happen with me doing the mission, but it opened up a couple of other things. [01:02:20] Speaker A: Okay. [01:02:20] Speaker C: And it made me explore the map a lot more, which I'm looking for. [01:02:22] Speaker A: It also makes the, like. It starts dropping things to do. So it helped. [01:02:27] Speaker C: Definitely help. But I still have no idea what you're talking about with the horse. [01:02:30] Speaker B: Oh, God. Yeah. [01:02:32] Speaker A: But, yeah. [01:02:33] Speaker C: I don't know. Bryce, what have you been reading or doing? Or playing or whatever. [01:02:37] Speaker A: So now that I ride my bike to work, I have a lot of time. My commute is very long and very healthy, so that's nice. I'm keeping my carbon footprint down and saving money on car repairs. But as a result, I've been listening to a ton of books, and I just finished John Cleese's short guide for creativity, which was great. It takes like, an hour to read also. And he even mentions, I don't know why you listen to this. It takes like, an hour to read. I don't know. Maybe some of my listeners can't read, but I just finished that. But I just finished one. I feel like everyone should know this. Last. A week ago, I finished tears of the kingdom. [01:03:20] Speaker C: Finally. [01:03:20] Speaker A: It took me four and a half months. [01:03:25] Speaker C: How many hours do you have? [01:03:26] Speaker A: I don't want to say, but I'm pretty sure. I don't actually know for sure, but I'm pretty sure it's over 200. [01:03:31] Speaker C: Oh, I believe it. [01:03:32] Speaker A: I put over 200 into Metal Gear solid five also. But I was hurt by Metal Gear solid five because it ended at the end of chapter two, and I wasn't prepared for that. [01:03:42] Speaker C: Right. [01:03:43] Speaker A: And tears of the kingdom, I didn't know if it was going to do that to me, and so I was like, oh, I got to be really careful about this. So I ended up doing a lot of extra things before going and doing what I thought was Endgame, and then it wasn't endgame, and I was like, hell, yeah, sweet. And so I ended up getting probably the last third of the game kind of all at once, which made the pacing for it way more enjoyable. [01:04:07] Speaker C: Sure. [01:04:07] Speaker A: If you haven't played tears of the kingdom, I highly recommend not going to the lost woods, not going into the storm, and playing just through the story. If you see a temple, go to the temple. If you see a shrine, go to a shrine. But just play through the story until somebody actually gets a beat on. Beat on. Beat on. I don't know that phrase. Till somebody goes, oh, hey, look, that's actually Zelda. Let's go to her. Once that happens. And they're like, no, go to Hyrule Castle. Once you get directed to go to Hyrule Castle, then maybe you can take some time and prepare. But until then, don't do the lost woods. Don't do the thing. But most importantly, the thing I am reading right now is I am very nearly finished with phase one of the high Republic. [01:04:51] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [01:04:52] Speaker A: I just finished the audio drama Tempest runner. [01:04:55] Speaker B: Yes. [01:04:55] Speaker A: With my favorite Tempest runner. I'm so glad they focused on her because I think she's so freaking cool. [01:05:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:00] Speaker A: Lorna D. Lorna D. Atwillic Nighhill is part of this massive group of raiders and marauders that are ruining what is supposed to be the zenith of the Republic and the Jedi order. And she goes on her own little redemption arc. And it is beautiful and tragic and fantastic. [01:05:30] Speaker C: It was really cool. [01:05:31] Speaker B: And, and a. It's. [01:05:32] Speaker C: It's an audio drama. [01:05:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a full cast. But they brought in Mark Thompson to play his characters that he's played as in the other books. So he still matched. [01:05:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:45] Speaker A: Lorna Dee didn't match the same. But I got very used to it and I really liked because, you know, Twilight's are french and I don't know why, but he know Panetta who talks like this or whatever. Panetta was there and I don't think Stellan shows up. I didn't love Velco or Avar Chris very much, but every prisoner I loved and the actress who played Lorna D, while I didn't necessarily love her at first because she didn't match what Mark Thompson had done, he's our gold standard. She's so good. [01:06:17] Speaker B: Yeah, she's so good. [01:06:18] Speaker A: And then of course, any clips, any brief as they may be with Marcion Rowe or Marcion Rowe, depending on what part of the galaxy you're from, with his calm, pausing and selective word choices. [01:06:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:36] Speaker A: That he makes with intention. So good. [01:06:41] Speaker B: Fucking love him. [01:06:42] Speaker A: I love him so much. Mark Thompson, be on our podcast, please. [01:06:46] Speaker B: We love you. Yeah. [01:06:48] Speaker A: Catch your next con. So the next book in my list, I had to read through a bunch of comics and now I am on. [01:06:55] Speaker C: You're getting to a mission to disaster. [01:06:57] Speaker A: Mission to disaster, which we started in the car the other day, you and I, and we made it to chapter three. And so I have that book and then I've got a fat stack of comics. And then I think I'm basically on my way to. [01:07:11] Speaker C: It's not that fat. There's like four or five. [01:07:14] Speaker A: That's not the list I saw. I thought it was like 1015. [01:07:17] Speaker C: No, you're close, sir. [01:07:20] Speaker A: Oh, boy. So then I get to go have my heart broken. I know it's going to happen. I'm pretty sure Kevin Scott's going to do it. Yeah, he's done it enough already. [01:07:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:28] Speaker A: I will say. And I feel like it needs to be brought up and I'll bring this up again. If we ever do an episode about the high Republic, which I feel like we are. [01:07:35] Speaker C: We're going to. [01:07:37] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll talk about loading great storm later. And then you get to hear me openly weep during a podcast. And that's what everybody tunes in for, right? Anyway, so yeah, I'm still powering through the high Republic, but it's hardly a power through. [01:07:54] Speaker C: You're flowing pretty good. [01:07:56] Speaker A: It's so good. Yeah, that story group is doing so good. And it's so refreshing too, because a lot of my usual franchise readings and viewings and things like that, I've been a little bit worn out on. And then I'm also working my way through the universal century on Gundam. Oh yeah, but that's a whole nother podcast. We'll talk about that. [01:08:18] Speaker C: All these are whole other. [01:08:20] Speaker A: Anyway, so yeah, thanks for joining us. [01:08:24] Speaker C: Let us know what you think of echo. [01:08:25] Speaker A: Yes, please let us know what you think of Echo. No, seriously, if you made it to the end of this, find some way to tell us in a public forum what you thought of Echo and what you liked about it. Yeah, please. We love to talk to you guys. I'd love to hear, especially from those of you who are in other countries, or if you're using a VPN to listen to us, I'd love to hear that too. So I can know how many people are actually coming and listening to us in Korea, Japan and Germany, and how much are just some guy in Colorado. How's it going, budy? Who might be listening to us using a VPN, who knows? Anyway, we love to hear from you guys. I cannot wait to tell you what's going on with the podcast in general in the next coming episodes. But after this, our next episode is our 50th episode. Brian. Yeah, 50th episode. [01:09:19] Speaker C: Official 50th. I mean, there's like, we have mini so many. [01:09:23] Speaker A: No, look, official, our official 50th episode is our next episode after this. So thank you for listening to episode 49 and thank you for listening everything up until then. [01:09:34] Speaker B: Bye. [01:09:35] Speaker A: Later. Bye.